Are Tabletop RPGs becoming more liberal?

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:41 pm

Virtue and Vice wrote: Faith

Those with Faith know that the universe is not random, meaningless chaos, but ordered by a higher power. No matter how horrifying the world might be, everything has its place in the Plan and ultimately serves that Purpose. This Virtue does not necessarily involve belief in a personified deity. It might involve belief in a Grand Unified Theory whereby the seeming randomness of the universe is ultimately an expression of mathematical precision. Or it might be a view that everything is One and that even evil is indistinguishable from good when all discriminating illusions are overcome.[2]

Fortitude

A person’s ideals are meaningless unless they’re tested. When it seems as though the entire world is arrayed against him because of his beliefs, a person possessing Fortitude weathers the storm and emerges with his convictions intact. Fortitude is about standing up for one’s beliefs and holding the course no matter how tempting it may be to relent or give up. By staying the course—regardless of the cost—he proves the worth of his ideals.

Prudence

The Virtue of Prudence places wisdom and restraint above rash action and thoughtless behavior. One maintains integrity and principles by moderating actions and avoiding unnecessary risks. While that means a prudent person might never take big gambles that bring huge rewards, neither is his life ruined by a bad roll of the dice. By choosing wisely and avoiding the easy road he prospers slowly but surely.[6]

Temperance

Moderation in all things is the secret to happiness, so says the doctrine of Temperance. It’s all about balance. Everything has its place in a person’s life, from anger to forgiveness, lust to chastity. The temperate do not believe in denying their urges, as none of it is unnatural or unholy. The trouble comes when things are taken to excess, whether it’s a noble or base impulse. Too much righteousness can be just as bad as too much wickedness

There you go.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:30 pm

TheEye: yes, if we ignore what the people who actually use the seven virtues actually mean by them and pretend they mean other things that are praiseworthy in other contexts, then... they'll be praiseworthy in the other contexts we've exported them to. But considering that you came to this thread without knowing what the seven virtues actually were, I think the chances of you being able to pull what they "really mean" out of your ass is slim to none.

Because when you go to Christian sites and have them lay out the seven virtues, here is what you get:

Changing Minds wrote: Faith is belief in the right things (including the virtues!).
Hope is taking a positive future view, that good will prevail.
Charity is concern for, and active helping of, others.
Fortitude is never giving up.
Justice is being fair and equitable with others.
Prudence is care of and moderation with money.
Temperance is moderation of needed things and abstinence from things which are not needed.

Instructions For the Virtuous wrote:1
Keep the virtue of "Faith" foremost in your life. This is considered the most important virtue, allowing you to incorporate the others more easily into your life. If you have faith that God is truly good, merciful and just you will want to please Him. The Seven Heavenly Virtues are guideposts in your spiritual journey through this life.

2
Retain the virtue of "Hope" in the midst of adversity. Hope is the belief good will prevail no matter what evil may befall you or your loved ones. Always bear in mind only God alone knows what will come of your efforts and your struggles to continue to do good even when tempted by despair.

3
Practice the virtue of "Charity" in your life. It's not only love for others that is encompassed by this virtue, but the actions accompanying it. Charity is love in action; it's useless if you by-pass opportunities to show charity for others in your life.

4
Continue to follow God's will no matter how difficult life becomes. This is the virtue of "Fortitude." It is hope in action. Always fulfill your obligations even when you can see no point in continuing or when others seek to keep you from practicing this virtue. Eventually you'll push through the adversity and see the fruits of your labors.

5
Practice the virtue of "Justice." Everyone expects others to be treated fairly, but often we forget to exercise fair practice to others. In the "Our Father" you ask God to forgive your trespasses as you forgive the trespasses of others. In other words, you're asking God to treat you the way you treat others. If you treat others justly, then God will do the same for you.

6
Manage your life with "Prudence" in all areas, including money, actions and words. This virtue must rule your decisions; if you want a new car but might run into debt with the purchase it would be prudent to make do with what you have. If you have a tendency to gossip it is prudent to hold your tongue.

7
Be "Temperate" in all you do. The virtue of "Temperance" is often mistaken for a warning against overindulgence in alcohol, but it's meant to cover all aspects of life. This includes gluttony, greed and intemperance. Use what you need, do not wish for more than you have and let go of things that lead you away from the fruitful life God has planned for you.

Got that? That is what those virtues "really mean", because that is what the people who think those virtues are virtues say that they fucking mean! And if you think that America values that concept of "Temperance", you are fucking high.

The Republican Party had to think a bit before deciding that they liked Mitt Romney more than Donald Trump. If you think that is in any way consistent with the idea that "abstaining from things that are not needed" or "not wishing for more than you have", I have a bridge to sell you. Mitt Romney got a $77,000 tax writeoff for dressing his horse up for horse prom. Wishing for more than he has is kind of his thing.

The Enlightenment values Reason, Progressivism values Progress, Hedonism values Joy, Randism values Selfishness (seriously! and there are Randites in America's Congress, and they are allowed to write the opposition's budget proposals), Confucianism values Xiao (which can't even be expressed as a single word in English), and so on. And these virtues are not in the seven heavenly virtues. They just fucking aren't.

-Username17

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:45 pm

Well, for WoD, they had to pick a Morality system that most people could recognize, and Christianity's the most common one in the Western World. I could see why they went with that, even if it doesn't always gel well with certain settings. At least they made the "vampires are spawn of Lilith" up to debate and not enshrined in metaplot.

@K:

Back to Eclipse Phase, the Jovians and GOP are definitely militaristic and nationalistic, but that doesn't make them fascist. One of the Jovian colonies is named after the Libertarian Milton Friedman, and the government structure is modeled after South American juntas and US congressional lobbying. I don't think the writers were trying to be politically correct so much as the fact that they grouped in the European and American right-wing together. In the US, libertarians and fascists are placed on the Right-wing on the American spectrum despite having major differences in ideology. The Jovians are more of a generic repressive tyranny suspicious of transhuman technology more than anything.

And on the subject of gender, a lot of historical RPGs often downplay racism and sexism to include a more inclusive atmosphere. The most common argument against this is that it destroys verisimilitude, but the argument for it is that it wouldn't be very fun to play a female in a realistic Medieval England, or an African-American in 1920s America. I don't consider this "liberal" so much as trying to maximize fun for everyone, but a vocal minority of gamers seem to regard this as bad thing or PC run amok.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:56 pm

Libertad wrote:Well, for WoD, they had to pick a Morality system that most people could recognize

Um... no they didn't. Not only were there a literal fuck tonne of wiccans and humanists and miscellaneous goths in their fractious player base, but they already had a system of "nature and demeanor" that was ethical-system blind. Fuck, they could have kept the Virtues and Vices bit, but let people make up their own and give a larger sampler platter. There was absolutely no reason to go the full monte on Christian Theological Ethics when they didn't have to.

And you know what? Most of their fans abandoned them and their revision was a financial failure so severe that the company itself went out of business and got sold to Icelanders who wanted to keep the lines alive to capitalize on the brand recognition of the previous system to make video games with. That is not even a joke.

Libertad wrote:@K:

Back to Eclipse Phase, the Jovians and GOP are definitely militaristic and nationalistic, but that doesn't make them fascist. One of the Jovian colonies is named after the Libertarian Milton Friedman, and the government structure is modeled after South American juntas and US congressional lobbying. I don't think the writers were trying to be politically correct so much as the fact that they grouped in the European and American right-wing together. In the US, libertarians and fascists are placed on the Right-wing on the American spectrum despite having major differences in ideology.

The folks who made Eclipse Phase are frankly not that informed on political or economic concepts. But to the extent of their abilities, they do try to portray Right wing ideologies in a positive light. It's in no way a slant to the left over Shadowrun. Quite the opposite. It's way more sympathetic to Libertarian, Propertarian, and Authoritarian views than Shadowrun is. "Polluters" are in no way listed as a basic enemy you might have.

-Username17

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:01 pm

I meant to say "most people in the Western world" regarding my previous post. Many Westerners are familiar with "the 7 deadly sins."

Not saying that it's good for non-standard games like Werewolf, just theorizing why they did it.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:01 pm

This might be slightly off topic, but I thought White Wolf got bought out by WotC a long long time ago, and WotC was recently(ish) bought out by Hasbro.

Did WotC sell off the whitewolf IP?

Whatever · Post by **Whatever** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:04 pm

Maybe you're thinking of TSR? WotC bought out D&D, not Vampire.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:21 pm

I got confused, because WotC bought Ars Magica from White Wolf in 1994, and for some reason, I assumed that meant they bought all of WW.

I see where my mistake came from.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:59 pm

TSR went out of business in the late 90s and were bought by WotC in 1997. WotC was purchased by Hasbro in 1999, meaning that the entire 3e era was under Hasbro leadership - if originally only barely.

White Wolf made New World of Darkness in 2004, and went out of business shortly thereafter. They were purchased in an IP firesale in 2006, which has kept them alive as a shovelware imprint while moving to make video games based on the Old World of Darkness.

The key takehome of that is that whatever you think of any particular diatribe against the nWoD, the overall reality is that to an even greater extent than 4e D&D - it was a terrible failure. You cannot justify any particular decision by saying "But hey, overall it worked!", because overall it did not work. Any individual choice they made was very likely to be wrong, because taken as a whole it alienated their fans so hard that the company went out of business.

-Username17

Stubbazubba · Post by **Stubbazubba** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:02 pm

I'd say the TTRPG industry tends to be more conservative than other artistic industries, if for no other reason than they know that their audience tends to be well-off and male.

But the question specifically talks about a temporal analysis, not a static one. I think society in large tends to become more liberal with time as each passing generation rejects certain perspectives from the previous one and embraces something else, so any observed shift from the 70s 80s to the 00s or 10s is clearly going to come with a general attitude shift, whether it's what gender of pronoun to use in the rulebook or what the evil or good societies look and act like. That, at least, would be my prediction of the general trend, individual games or editions of games notwithstanding. I don't have a cross-section of games from all different eras to examine, however, so i don't claim that this is the case.

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:03 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
Um... no they didn't. Not only were there a literal fuck tonne of wiccans and humanists and miscellaneous goths in their fractious player base, but they already had a system of "nature and demeanor" that was ethical-system blind. Fuck, they could have kept the Virtues and Vices bit, but let people make up their own and give a larger sampler platter. There was absolutely no reason to go the full monte on Christian Theological Ethics when they didn't have to.

-Username17

Yeah. This isn't a hindsight thing. Did nobody even spend 5 minutes listing "what do our (stereotypical, imagined) customers like and dislike"?

infected slut princess · Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:08 pm

EDIT: you know what, I don't even want to get sucked into a political discussion with you ignorant fuckers. Everyone is either a really shallow and unsophisticated socialist knave or a really shallow unsophisticated 'conservative' fool.

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:20 pm

infected slut princess wrote:EDIT: you know what, I don't even want to get sucked into a political discussion with you ignorant fuckers. Everyone is either a really shallow and unsophisticated socialist knave or a really shallow unsophisticated 'conservative' fool.

Edit: I'll just PM you the answer I had, then.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:31 pm

theye1 wrote:Please tell me what culture explicitly rejects, even partially, Charity, Faith, Fortitude, Hope, Justice, Prudence or Temperance?

Charity Capitalists
Faith Atheists
Hope Satanists
Justice Criminals
Prudence Christians ("the ability to govern and discipline oneself by the use of reason" is the Wiki definition of it as a virtue)
Temperance again, Satanists, depending on how strictly you define Temperance.

Tell me, what list of virtues and vices would you have for Islamic characters, for example? I'm generally curious.

Righteousness, Generosity, Gratitude, Contentment, Humility, Kindness, Courtesy, Purity, Good Speech, Respect, Wisdom, Justice, Mercy, Dignity, Courage, Firmness, Frankness, Hope, Patience, Perseverance, Discipline, Self Restraint, Moderation, "Prudence" (though they seem to use the word to mean "put agreements in writing" and "don't act without knowing the truth"), Unity, Frugality, Sincerity, Responsibility, Loyalty, Trustworthiness, Honesty, Repentance and Spirituality.
Wow, they really need either a poet or a PR person to get that down to a manageable list.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:49 pm

Prak, the assumption that Satanists are a demographic anyone should ever care about is completely false.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:51 pm

Cham, I'm a satanist, you fuck, and your statement is like saying "No one should ever care about the wiccan demographic."

Edit: really, a satanic Virtue/Vice set would look like this:

Virtues
Indulgence Satanism teaches that indulgence is a good thing, leading to gratification that releases tension and urges, thus clearing the mind.
Action Satanism values "vital existence" over "spiritual pipe dreams," and believes action to be infinitely more worthwhile than prayer.
Wisdom Satanism urges one to act with wisdom, and seeing through deception, whether from without or within.
Gratitude Satanism instructs it's followers to repay kindness with kindness
Vengeance A Satanist is taught to repay pain, harassment and torment with the same
Responsibility Satanism teaches one to be accountable and to hold others accountable

Vices (Ignoring the contrarian nature of Satanic word use)
Stupidity The vice of falling to what you are told, and not looking for the truth
Pretentiousness The vice of empty or undeserved pride and thanklessness.
Solipsism The vice of believing yourself to be the only truth, projecting your nature and reaction on to others
Slavishness The vice of letting another entity dictate your actions and attitudes without good reason.
Lack of Perspective The vice of tunnel vision, whether forgetting who you or others are, or what has come before or is happening now.
Lack of Aesthetics The vice of laziness. Everything a satanist does should be done with style, and appreciation for classic, timeless beauty is essential, as is gratitude for Lesser Magic (read, manipulation, in a way).

Now, yes, I engaged in a bit of PR here, as well as condensing things down, as I said the muslims dearly need to do with their virtues. And, yes a lot of satanists are full of fail in these respects... but that's hardly different from other religions.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:17 pm

infected slut princess wrote:EDIT: you know what, I don't even want to get sucked into a political discussion with you ignorant fuckers. Everyone is either a really shallow and unsophisticated socialist knave or a really shallow unsophisticated 'conservative' fool.

I can't believe you tried denying people the pleasure of telling you to put up or shut up like that.

Anyway, I like social mobility as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean I somehow magically think I still agree with the sort of people who wrote down theological doctrine back when it was still fashionable to espouse the advantages of strict hierarchies.

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:22 pm

FWIW,

Barbara Smoker wrote: The eight Humanist virtues are: a regard for what is true, personal responsibility, tolerance, considerateness, breadth of sympathy, public spirit, cooperative endeavour, and a concern for future generations.

Although I'd probably combine considerateness + breadth of sympathy into one, and public spirit + cooperativeness + concern for future generations into a second, if I were going to try and use these in such a context.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:38 pm

Unless you are actually significantly more than one person, no amount of your belonging to a demographic will stop it from being pitifully small and thus not worth considering from any kind of business or marketing standpoint.

EDIT: And incidentally, no one should ever care about the Wiccan demographic either. See again: Tiny, no money in it.

infected slut princess · Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:43 pm

Whipstitch wrote:
infected slut princess wrote:EDIT: you know what, I don't even want to get sucked into a political discussion with you ignorant fuckers. Everyone is either a really shallow and unsophisticated socialist knave or a really shallow unsophisticated 'conservative' fool.
I can't believe you tried denying people the pleasure of telling you to put up or shut up like that.

Anyway, I like social mobility as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean I somehow magically think I still agree with the sort of people who wrote down theological doctrine back when it was still fashionable to espouse the advantages of strict hierarchies.

uh... what?

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:52 pm

The first sentence was saying that your edited post reads like a huge cop out and the second sentence was an unrelated aside about how traditionalists really struggle with the simple fact that they're much, much different than many of the people they claim to admire.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:57 pm

Chamomile wrote:Unless you are actually significantly more than one person, no amount of your belonging to a demographic will stop it from being pitifully small and thus not worth considering from any kind of business or marketing standpoint.

EDIT: And incidentally, no one should ever care about the Wiccan demographic either. See again: Tiny, no money in it.

So RPGs shouldn't care about the african american demographic, either?

infected slut princess · Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:00 am

Ok that makes sense.

K · Post by K » Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:28 am

Libertad wrote: @K:

Back to Eclipse Phase, the Jovians and GOP are definitely militaristic and nationalistic, but that doesn't make them fascist. One of the Jovian colonies is named after the Libertarian Milton Friedman, and the government structure is modeled after South American juntas and US congressional lobbying. I don't think the writers were trying to be politically correct so much as the fact that they grouped in the European and American right-wing together. In the US, libertarians and fascists are placed on the Right-wing on the American spectrum despite having major differences in ideology. The Jovians are more of a generic repressive tyranny suspicious of transhuman technology more than anything.

There is a reason that there was a serious Republican Presidental nominee contender who was actually a Libertarian.... it's because both are firmly entrenched in right wing political ideas. At best, they merely disagree on how the social safety net should be dismantled and what kinds of socially conservative laws should be implemented, not that the rich should not rule us or that socially conservative laws should be on the books regardless of the harm.

I'm not an expert on Eclipse Phase as I've only skimmed the main book, but I can tell you that strong nationalism and fear campaigns against non-conformers is a vital component of fascism. Hating and fearing transhumans as a political plank fits neatly into the fascism playbook.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:38 am

Prak_Anima wrote:Cham, I'm a satanist, you fuck, and your statement is like saying "No one should ever care about the wiccan demographic."

Edit: really, a satanic Virtue/Vice set would look like this:

Virtues

Indulgence Satanism teaches that indulgence is a good thing, leading to gratification that releases tension and urges, thus clearing the mind.

Action Satanism values "vital existence" over "spiritual pipe dreams," and believes action to be infinitely more worthwhile than prayer.

Wisdom Satanism urges one to act with wisdom, and seeing through deception, whether from without or within.

Gratitude Satanism instructs it's followers to repay kindness with kindness

Vengeance A Satanist is taught to repay pain, harassment and torment with the same

Responsibility Satanism teaches one to be accountable and to hold others accountable

Vices (Ignoring the contrarian nature of Satanic word use)

Stupidity The vice of falling to what you are told, and not looking for the truth

Pretentiousness The vice of empty or undeserved pride and thanklessness.

Solipsism The vice of believing yourself to be the only truth, projecting your nature and reaction on to others

Slavishness The vice of letting another entity dictate your actions and attitudes without good reason.

Lack of Perspective The vice of tunnel vision, whether forgetting who you or others are, or what has come before or is happening now.

Lack of Aesthetics The vice of laziness. Everything a satanist does should be done with style, and appreciation for classic, timeless beauty is essential, as is gratitude for Lesser Magic (read, manipulation, in a way).

Now, yes, I engaged in a bit of PR here, as well as condensing things down, as I said the muslims dearly need to do with their virtues. And, yes a lot of satanists are full of fail in these respects... but that's hardly different from other religions.

The thing is, because of the way the mechanics are set up Vices have to be something that PCs can do at least once a session to get willpower back.

Gluttony, greed, wrath, lust are pretty easy to do in a game. Gluttony, you just eat whatever isn't nailed down. That's easy. Find a melted candy bar on the ground? Eat it. Meet a girl in a bar? Tear her leg off and eat it. Chicks dig that. Kill a werewolf? Eat it. It's easy to just eat things at inappropriate times.

Greed, of course, means stealing stuff. You can do that quite easily, too. If you see something you want, take it. Preferably you take it from an NPC, not a member of your party, because that's disruptive. But you could totally be the Carmen Sandiego of the World of Darkness. Rob a bank, knock over a jewrly store. Put the Eiffel tower in your secret underground vault.

Wrath, of course, can be accomplished just by killing things. That's 90% of the game right there, so you'll be regaining willpower pretty easily. You're at a resturant and your steak is medium well when you specifically ordered rare? Kill everyone there, patrons and chefs alike. You might also want to eat them, but that's the glutton's job.

Lust, of course, is easiest. There is no point in a game session when you can't have a character just drop their pants and masturbate. Meeting with the leader of the local vampire coterie? Just jerk off right there in front of him. Bam, you regained some willpower. It's also always an option to rape the corpses of your defeated enemies.

Envy is harder to do, but it's basically just a lust, greed, or gluttony directed at something another guy has.

Pride's the only one that required deep roleplaying. And even then you can just resort to childish contrarianism when dealing with 1000-year-old vampires.

On the other hand, Im not at all sure how to practically rollplay any of the Satanic Vices, except possibly Lack of Aesthetics. But intentionally looking like a dweeb all the time isn't exactly work a willpower point.

The Gaming Den

Are Tabletop RPGs becoming more liberal?

Are RPGs getting more liberal over time?